State vs Private or Grammar School

Podcast Notes

 Asalamualaikum Peace be with you. You are listening to Cup of Parenting podcast, and I'm your host, Aisha, a paediatric speech and language therapist, mum of seven, and parenting coach here in the uk. In this episode, we're going to be comparing state schools versus private, independent, or grammar schools. This week I'm joined by Madeeha

Madeeha is by profession an Optometrist based in London, in the uk and she's also a new mum. And the reason I've asked her to come onto the show is because she did exceptionally well in her studies scoring some of the highest grades in her country for her G C S E exams, as well as scoring very highly in her A Levels and in the first class degree, which she got as well.

So welcome to the show, Madeeha.

Asalamualaikum!

Walaikumusalam. We are going to be talking about sort of our experiences with the education system here in the UK in particular, you know, state school versus private / public school as they're known in the uk and what the real, you know, what the key differences are. But before we do that, just in case our listeners are not familiar, because it can be quite tricky to navigate your way through the school system in the uk if you are not from here.

I'm just gonna give quick definitions. So public schools in the UK are actually really exclusive and prestigious private school things like Eaton College or Harrow School, for example. Then you have independent schools. Now these are overseen by a board of governors or trustees, and you have to pay fees to attend independent schools, and they're very similar to private schools where you also pay fees to attend.

But the only difference is these are sort of run by the owners, so they're a bit more selective. Then you've got state schools, which are actually your free government. Schools. And then you've got grammar schools, which are actually also free. They're also run by the government and funded by the government, but they're actually very academically oriented.

To get into a grammar school, you actually have to sit an 11 plus exam. So that's some definitions for you, just in case you weren't familiar. So let's begin by talking about state school. So Madeeha you yourself, and you did your secondary education. So that's from. Seven all the way through to sort of year 11.

Yeah. Did you go to private school or did you go to state school?

Yeah, I went to a normal state school.

Okay. And what were your sort of experiences of going to a state school?

Yep. So I went to a female-only state school at that age, obviously within Islamic up bringing my parents thought it was the best thing to do is obviously have separate gender schools, so my brother went to a male-only school.

Looking back at that as a parent, I also think that was an excellent choice in terms of the difference with the state school compared to grammar school, which we will get onto in a little bit. I would say it's a lot less academically orientated, and that's because of the fact that there is such a wide range of like abilities and in one sense that's really good because you, you know, don't feel that kind of pressure because everyone's at such different levels.

But this, on the flip side, there is a disadvantage in the sense that you might be academically excellent, but you are not pushed to excel just because there is other people in the classroom. We try a little bit behind and the classroom has to go at the pace of the majority of the people, if that makes sense.

mm-hmm. , Yeah.

Yeah. So if you are looking to kind of go to a state school, I would definitely say make sure you go to one where you know, some are a little bit more academically orientated than others. I would definitely say you need to have a look at that. So if you have a child where you feel like, well, actually my child doesn't really like or enjoy or is not good at studying, which is perfectly fine, but they're more sports or arts. A lot of the state schools especially the academies, they do kind of push you to that more artistic field and that's absolutely fine. Whereas if you feel like actually my child is very academically inclined, then definitely that is something you need to look at when you are deciding what school you want to go for.

I'm just gonna pick you up on something you said a little bit earlier, Madeeha so you mentioned that you went to a female only school. Now some people would argue that for real life experience it's better to go to a co-ed school. What is your take on that? I know sort of statistically it's true, isn't it? That children who do attend a single sex school during their secondary school education in particular score higher than coeds. Would you agree with that?

Yeah, absolutely. I think to be honest, it's more about distractions , isn't it? Which is only natural. And you know, you are teenagers and I think at that kind of moment in your life, sometimes you probably think you know better, but it's one of those things where looking back, your parents do obviously make the decision in your best interest and going to a female only school I think just helps your focus and it just, it makes you feel like, oh, actually I'm going to school for going to school. And I know that sounds a little bit cliche, but now if you look at children younger and younger girls are like going to school wearing makeup and they need to have the latest bags and stuff.

Whereas when I was in school, none of that was an issue.

So it's all this sort of pressure now. Peer pressure, pressure from society.

Yeah.

Okay now, Can I just talk about your results? So you did exceptionally well at the end of your gcse. So to put into perspective for anyone who's not from the uk, typically if you attend private school you would be doing about nine gcse.

So Madi, you only did you do 14 GCSEs Alhamdullilah but you managed to secure the highest grade in all of them and for quite a few of them you actually scored the highest grade in the whole country. Now from your personal experience how much would you attribute your sort of results to the environment in which you are in?

Because you were in a normal state school. I know you've said it was obviously single gender, but it was a normal state school. It wasn't a school that was known for particularly producing high results. Would you say that was because of your personal circumstances because of your work ethos, because of where you were?

I think I'm one of the younger siblings of a quite a big family, Alhamdullilah and all of us are very kind of academically inclined, so I think that was the first kind of stepping stone for me to have older siblings, all of whom Alhamdullilah did get degrees. The second thing I would say is I myself was quite a driven person, and I think that definitely parents should take that into consideration when you are deciding between a state school or not is, is your child driven themselves? Because a lot of the motivation that I needed to get the grades I did has to come from within. So I definitely think that that's a really important factor to consider whether your child can do it themselves. If they can't, that's not an issue.

It just means you should take them put them into a, a place which kind of pushes the children a bit more rather than doing it independently.

So at the end of your GCSEs, you actually then had to do your two years of college or sixth form as it's known, if it's within a school or attached to a school and you chose to go to a sixth form that was actually now part of a grammar school.

So ordinarily to get to a grammar school, as we said in the introduction, you'd have to be quite academically inclined and you know the most academic children go there. So first of all, why did you choose to go to a grammar sixth form? You went to the King Edwards one, is that correct? Yeah. And they are one of the best in the country, are they not?

Yeah. So why did you choose to go there? Was it because of your results or?

Yeah, so when I got my results and I did do quite well, I knew that I therefore wanted to be in an environment. Obviously it gets a little bit more serious at A levels, so I wanted to kind of push myself. Yeah.

Great. And what were your experiences once you were in, you know, sixth form and you were doing your A Levels, do you feel like it helped being in that environment because you did quite well anyway when you weren't in such an academic environment? So what was the difference now for you?

To be honest, academic-wise, it was absolutely faultless and I would not criticize it whatsoever. They were really, really good at like regularly testing you. Keeping you on your toes, making sure you knew everything. However, what I would say is it was incredibly stressful, the whole environment they create, and I think that can be quite difficult if you can't handle pressure. And at times I did feel like it was very, very intense and I think that that is something definitely that needs to be considered as well. When you are deciding with grammar schools, one of the main things they do is kind of center absolutely everything around getting your grades and that is the be end and end all.

So if you don't do well, you do feel it and you do feel like I'm the only person in this classroom who hasn't done well because you are expected to do exceptionally well. So definitely I think academically, if you. Obviously can handle pressure and you wanna get those grades and you wanna go and do a really good course at university, it's fantastic.

But I would say that as a parent you would wanna kind of help your child even more so. At that stage. And obviously if they are looking like they are struggling under the pressure, you do need to be there for them.

That's really interesting you've said that. So I mean, they are academically inclined places and I think people would sort of know that before.

So some of the advantages people say in terms of private and grammars and independent schools, in fact, are the fact that you've got smaller class sizes. They might have better facilities, more extracurricular activity options. So it's not just about the academics, you know, you get the chance to pursue languages or sports.

You've got children who are more enthusiastic towards learning. The teachers are able to tailor the curriculum, which they are, you know, not, can't really do if in state schools. Would you agree with this.

Yeah, absolutely. I think, like I said, physically everything's there. Like you said, better equipment, usually smaller class sizes.

The teachers generally are a lot more kind of Fine tuned and picked out. So yeah, in that sense, absolutely fine. I think for me, going from a state school to a grammar school, the change in the kind of mental pressure was quite immense. And to be honest, it was quite unexpected at first. Definitely.

Okay, that's interesting. But there are some disadvantages, and you've already mentioned the sort of academic pressure, the sudden switch because you went obviously when you were at sixth form age. And there are also other disadvantages. So for example, there might not be that much of a variety in terms of people, in terms of the social class there seems to be a bit of a divide. And also you have to really prepare yourself academically. So I know you went in sixth form If had you had gone in from year seven, you would've had to prepare for what we call in the UK an 11 plus test. So what's your take on parents who prepare children for the 11 plus from a young age to try and get their children into grammar school? Because it's the best type of school, sort of academically, plus it's free, you know, do you think that's a good thing? I know sometimes children are ready, or sometimes you're just training them to pass. And then when they go in, as you've said, it's quite a different academic environment. So what's your opinion about that?

I think in one aspect it is good to obviously kind of drive your children because most children won't do it themselves. But I think it is important to kind of, kind of realize and accept when you think that I actually, my child will be absolutely fine in a grammar school environment. Whereas I have kind of firsthand seen, you know, some children who absolutely their parents have driven them just to pass 11 plus, but nothing beyond that. Once you're in grammar school, you're kind of left your own devices and with the whole kind of, you know, the amount of pressure that you are under and the results that you are expected to bring home, suddenly they're, they're drowning because actually they're not naturally gifted. And I think that is absolutely a really valid point that you have mentioned.

Okay, so then we come to another point that I wanted to talk about, and that is that actually there are opportunities for funding and scholarship bursaries that are available. So a lot of people say that it's great because children who might not otherwise have been able to afford a private education, at least if they can get into grammar school, that's it.

Once they're in, you know, they don't need to worry about paying fees because it's based just on academic merit. So did you find. To be true in terms of either yourself or friends that you know.

Yeah, I think that's absolutely fantastic. Definitely equal opportunity for all. There is, like for example, when I went to my grammar school, you definitely, as you mentioned earlier, there's that class issue.

Yeah, absolutely. The majority of people who had come from the, you know, the secondary version of the grammar school there were very affluent, very well off, definitely like middle class, upper class, and sometimes. Obviously when I went, I was already 16, so I didn't kind of feel that kind of peer pressure.

But when you go in there and you're like 11, 12 years old, when you're starting off in year seven and you know around you, people are like, oh, my mom's a doctor. My dad's a top lawyer. And then, you know, you might feel like, oh, actually I'm poor. You know, my parents' jobs aren't that good. Again, you can feel that kind of pressure coming from like all sides. And obviously the younger you are, the more kind of vulnerable you are to it. So again, that is something, yeah, definitely important needs to be considered.

And another thing that I want to talk about, so most people obviously when they're thinking of schools, when their children are in primary school, they're starting to think about secondary school.

And that's because after you've done your secondary education, it obviously impacts your A levels, which then impacts your university choices. So do you think it does make a massive difference? Because people, again you know, research has shown that children who attend grammar schools might have better prospects because schools that are either grammar schools or private schools might then be linked better in terms of the path to try and get you onto the sort of higher best university courses. The ones that are quite competitive, for example, medicine. So how much of that do you think is impacted by, Where you go in terms of secondary school?

Absolutely. I think a large, large part of it is, I think your path to what eventually degree you do does start getting paved out when you are in year seven.

And it does include your GCSEs and obviously includes your A Levels as well. But absolutely with the more, you know, the grammar schools and what they do from a very kind of early on, Is start making you do certain things. For example, the Duke of Edinburgh and various accolades like that to kind of add to your cv, to flower it up, to enhance it.

Whereas your normal state of schools, a lot of the time, they kind of disregard that as kind of extra. So they don't really focus on that. And that's one other thing I did notice with the grammar schoolers. They do really like make sure you are the full package. And obviously if you are the full package, especially with the more competitive university courses, you are more likely to be picked.

Okay, so that's interesting. Now, having said all of that, it's not the be all and end all is it trying to, you know, if, if you, for whatever reason your child, whether that's through personal choice or circumstance, doesn't end up going to either grammar school or private school or independent school, especially during the sort of covid in the past couple of years, if anything, we've learned how, you know, you, there are other options, basically, because the entire G C S E system was thrown into disarray, wasn't it?

Yeah. And a lot of people had turned to homeschooling as well. So I think that was a really important lesson for us. I mean, what would you say to parents out there who not considering that or haven't been. To go down that route. Maybe because of financial circumstances or as I've said, due to covid, due to job losses and their children are attending state schools because let's not forget, there are some really excellent state schools out there as well aren't there?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I, I personally know a few people who went to normal state schools and ended up in really, really good degree courses at university. Yeah. So I do have friends who are now doctors who went through it an absolutely normal path. So at the end of the day, Is you and your own abilities, isn't it?

And actually a lot of universities now, which is a really good scheme they're doing is making sure you've probably seen it in the news as well, but making sure like they accept a much more wide variety of social economic children.

Yes. Yeah. So they're sort of trying to seek out and balance their poor proportion of children, aren't they?

So it's not like, it's not like some people just don't get the opportunity. I mean, everyone will get the opportunity. So if you do find, well, if you are listening to this and you know your child's already in year nine, it's like you said, it's not the end of, it's not the end of the world.

It's absolutely your own child and your own abilities. A lot of this. That they do in school. So like I was saying, with like flowering up your cv, you can do yourself with your children outside of school.

Mm-hmm. That's a really interesting and important point. What extra activities would you say you did that helped you in your sort of future career prospects or would you advise other parents to sort of think about?

Definitely the number one is often repeated and repeated is being able to speak multiple languages. But if you are from a background where there is someone who can speak, you know, a secondary language, definitely try and teach your children that and make sure they're at least somewhat fluent in it, because that is the number one thing on a cv and that is something that universities really, really look for.

The second thing I would say is, especially now more so than ever, is something sporty. So like, You know, whether it's swimming, karate, anything that kind of shows that, oh, actually I'm not just academic. It could be like something more artistic, baking, painting, but stuff that even, you know, you don't even have to pay for stuff that you can do yourself at home.

I mean, a lot of people now are into like vlogging or like blogging or like making a blog. Store posting their like artwork on Instagram just so they can kind of build a nice portfolio. So when it does come to it and they do need to make their cv, they can show, they can show, look, this is what, this is the work I have done throughout the years.

That's really, really helpful advice. Thank you for that. So it seems that those things that you've mentioned, actually you can do yourself, can't you? It's not necessary that you have to do them, whatever school you attend, even in the school environment. Although obviously it would be a bonus if your child's already attending school and that's something that they're offering.

Cause myself personally, I home School most of my children, it's a bit of a mixed bag, but to then go to private school, so I know it's probably my homeschoolers who do more activities because we've got that freedom. And you can cherry pick, can't you? The ones that you want to do to sort of, as you've said, enhance your CV for later on in life, what do you think of the fact now there's so many degree options out there, but generally , a lot of people are turning towards business, so you know, maybe there was a time where you thought degree was the best option, and indeed, for some vocations you have to have a degree if you're gonna be a doctor and going into medicine, et cetera.

What would you say to people who are probably thinking, actually my child isn't academically orientated at all, and maybe I'll make them do business or do something else because it's not worth doing a degree, or we can't afford to do a degree. because it's going to cost us.

Yeah, absolutely. And there's a lot of like vocational degrees and courses out there now where you know you're paying less money, but actually your job is something that does not need a degree.

And I think, yeah, I completely agree with you. Without devaluing any degrees, sometimes a certain degrees you, they're not necessary for the profession that you actually want to go to. An apprenticeship or a course or something that is a lot cheaper is actually better. And I agree that there is this massive kind of thing attached to getting a degree just for the sake of getting a degree.

But now, especially since the price changed from 3000 to 9,000, it is very, very expensive. So I, I would definitely say, Try not to do a degree just for the sake of doing a degree. And definitely think actually at the end of it, what can I get out of it? Like you said, there is some courses specifically that you have to do.

For example, mine, I can only be an optometrist if I do a degree. Yeah. But there is certain professions where actually you don't need a degree. And I think unfortunately in certain cultures there is a bit of a stigma attach. If you don't have a degree. Yeah. Which is unfortunate, but Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, minimum a degree course is three, so that's like what, 9, 8 27.

That's, yeah, that's a huge amount of your life. If you, if you think about it .

A huge amount of your life and, and a lot of money. A lot of money,

yeah. A lot of money. Especially if you've got more than one child or you know, you want to invest that time in doing something else.

You could very well do a lot of things in three years. By no means are we saying forget about a degree, full stop. But I think it's just worth mentioning, isn't it? Like you've just said. Yeah. To think about ultimately, what do you want at the end of it, and I guess it all comes down to your personal circumstance, your values, according to your family, and also what you want to do in terms of being successful.

So whether that's. Just academics and you're not bothered at all about the religious side of things, whether your intent on balancing both of them, which is easily done, I mean, that's something that you've done successfully and lots of other people have as well. So it is worth, isn't it, looking at the individual child and looking at what does success look like, I guess, does that look like a degree, like you've said, do they need one or can it be in the shape or form of something else perhaps a vocational career or perhaps a business or anything else, really just with there being so many options available today. Because also, let's not forget, we're in the digital age as well, when, you know, that wasn't, that wasn't true maybe 10 years ago. So there are so many more opportunities out there that you can even do online now, isn't there for children in particular? I mean you, you read about so many stories of children who are quite successful in other ways. Yes. Which is, I think it's great to see and it's really encouraging for our youngsters as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, Madeeha thank you so much for taking time out of your super busy schedule for joining us this week.

So I'm just gonna wrap up by giving our parents three key pieces of advice. The first is think about your child as an individual based on, you know, their own academic merits. Secondly, think of your own circumstances. Think about things like what it means for your family, where your child goes to school.

Even little things like doing the school run every single day, bus fares the bus routes, things like that that you might not ordinarily think about at the forefront. Finally, don't forget there are other options such as homeschooling available if school isn't the right choice for your child.

Thank you so much, and yeah, just remember there's absolutely no right or wrong way.

Jazakallahu Khairan for listening. Asalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu.